Why you should listen –
Mistress Natalie is a professional dominatrix and life coach to entrepreneurs. Before becoming a full-time dominatrix, she was an entrepreneur with several successful businesses under her belt. Over the course of several sessions with her clients, she began to see the therapeutic value of BDSM and decided to go back to school to get accredited as a life coach. Her “Kinky Coaching” uses BDSM along with several biohacking principles as tools to elevate a person’s mental and physical state, increase neurofeedback and run a successful business. Enjoy the show!
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Speaker 2: Bulletproof Radio, a state of high performance.
Dave: You’re listening to Bulletproof radio with Dave Asprey. Today’s cool fact of the day is that recent Canadian study has shown that BDSM, that’s like bondage and fantasies are really common in both men and women. About 51% of women, fantasize about being tied up while 46% want to be in charge. On the other hand, I have no idea of the other small percentage who’s left over, about 3% apparently are asexual. On the other hand the 53% of men fantasize about being dominated and 46% think about spanking for sexual pleasure. Contrary to the characters in 50 Shades of Grey, our studies also show that BDSM participants are just as healthy psychologically about sex as people who do it the old fashion way.
Today’s episode is going to delve into some of those things. I don’t think we’re going to get too … What’s the word for it? Too graphic here, however, I have no idea exactly how graphic it’ll get. If you are listening with people in the car who are impressionable and need to know nothing about what we’re going to talk about, you can skip this episode and that’s all right. Before we get into today’s guest and by now you’re going, who is this woman who’s going to be on this show? You’ll know in a minute.
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Dave: Let’s talk about what you can do to your Bulletproof Coffee to upgrade your sex drive a little bit. There’s something called Bulletproof Cacao Butter and of course you can get a high quality chocolate powder. You can mix these into your Bulletproof coffee and you get more like a mocha flavor without the sweetness. You can put a bit of Xylitol from birch trees and if you want the sweet but cacao both the oil and the powder contains something called PEA or phenyle … I can never say this word right. Phenylethylamine, which is a mood enhancing compound that simulates endorphines and this is a neurochemicals of pleasure.
Those chemicals are also known to improve your libido. The Journal of Sexual Medicine says that women who enjoy chocolate everyday have a more active sex life than those who don’t. It’s summer, you can’t even get the Bulletproof Chocolate Bars right now but we have lab tested chocolate bars that are laced with brain octane and zero sugar. What I do during the cold months is I’ll ship those to you and during the hot months I stop shipping them, but I stock up. I still have about 50 of these Bulletproof Chocolate Bars at home so I’m never without my chocolate. Sorry you missed out but you can check out the Cacao Powder and Cacao Butter on Bulletproof.com.
All right, today’s guest is Mistress Natalie. She is a professional dominatrix, a certified life coach and an entrepreneur. She’s got about 20 years of doing something called BDSM and we’re going to have a scientific conversation about why and how and what happens there. She’s done pretty much everything that I can think of there, bondage, corporal punishment, humiliation, something called slut training, you can tell us what that is, medical torment, financial domination. That is an impressive one. Getting people to fetishize giving you money, that has to be the ultimate hack. Hypnosis and other techniques and things like that. That’s impressive and totally unusual and it’s a form of biohacking for sure and we’ll get into why I believe that’s the case. The other reason that you’re on the show and I’m saying you, because hey Mistress Natalie say hello.
Dave: The other reason I wanted you on the show today is that you hit 240 pounds when you were a teenager. You were a vegan on a very restrictive calorie diet, you broke your health. We actually have very similar health journeys where being heavy as a teenager doesn’t work out very well. For people who are watching the video on YouTube, go to bulletproofexec.com/youtube in order to find the YouTube channel. You’ll see that Mistress Natalie is I think technically very attractive would be the right way of putting it. Is that accurate? What do you think.
Natalie: Thank you. I hope so.
Dave: See I was trying to make you toot your own horn there and good you can do it.
Natalie: No I’m sorry. Only when I’m in my professional mode will I toot my own horn ad nauseam.
Dave: Exactly, and as it should be. The reason that I wanted to have you on the show here is that this is actually really a common thing. 50 Shades of Grey was an incredible best seller and just overwhelming in terms of the amount of interest in it and it’s hard to go Safeway without seeing 50 Shades of Grey on the shelf.
Natalie: The book are everywhere.
Dave: I get it’s entered the national consciousness and there’s a lot of interesting psychology that comes out with this kind of stuff from what I’ve heard. I’m from Silicon Valley, it’s Bay Area. They do this stuff all over the place.
Natalie: All the time yes.
Dave: Some of the things like inversion therapy, this is just from our conversations ahead of time. I hang upside down. You hang people upside down, maybe slightly differently.
Natalie: I do.
Dave: [Sensory deprivation can produce profound changes in your brain. I have a sensory deprivation tank. One of the techniques that you use is actually like blindfolding and plugging people’s ears and stuff like that. They’ve got no where to go but inside the mind even though maybe they’ve lost control there. You do a lot of electrical stem it sounds like?
Natalie: Yes. Definitely.
Dave: I do a lot of electrical stem.
Natalie: I know, so many similarities.
Dave: It’s seems like a bit of a stretch but there’s probably some physiology going here that we can dig in on. Finally, you talk about chastity play which I’m very intrigued to hear about because long time listeners know that I gave a talk, jeez, it’s going back about 4 or 5 years about how ejaculating too frequently actually sucks your energy and makes you … At least for men. I don’t think it’s particularly healthy based on Tantra and based on a year of experimenting with going up to 30 days without ejaculating, just not without sex, just without ejaculation. I believe that there’s probably some cool stuff going here and I just wanted want to talk to one of the world’s experts on this. Welcome to the show and this is going to be fun and interesting and we’ll see if it’s titillating or not.
Natalie: I think it should be and yes, I mean all of the things that you mentioned. Definitely the parallels that I can see as someone who started biohacking about 4 years ago now and doing what I have been doing for about 22, I’m drawing all these connections in my mind being like oh my God, I didn’t realize what I had been doing for the past 22 years have a lot of similarities with the things people do and biohacking and self improvements and other parts of life. It was very interesting for me when the brain started to make these connections. I was like, “Hey wait a minute.” Hopefully we can bring some of those to light.
Dave: Now let’s talk about your definition of BDSM. There are people listening and there’s all kinds of preconceived notions about this. I’ve had a few friends who are super into BDSM and they all like different things and it seems like a very broad definition. Tell the audience how you define it and let’s just go through your story and then talk about what it does for people. First, what is it?
Natalie: Well, the acronym is bondage, discipline, dominance, submission and sadomasochism but again those words mean a lot of different things to different people especially when you put them all together. It definitely excludes another part of BDSM which is fetishism. The actual acronym doesn’t really represent the whole picture and it is hugely hugely just wide open to people’s perception of what they consider BDSM. For me because I’ve been practicing for so long and I have a lot of interest, it can be a range of things but I can tell you instead of maybe what exactly it is, it’s what it’s not at least for me in my professional and personal life. It’s not about really, truly hurting somebody, it’s not about being completely selfish and it’s not about being this demanding over-arching stereotypical woman who’s just using and debasing another human being. It’s really about using kinky things, counter culture things, fetish and some of the things we would associate with BDSM, bondage and leather and restraints and restriction and punishment to sort of get a person to where they need to be.
That’s why what I do is so broad because it’s completely individualized. I’m there as a sort of facilitator more than anything else. It all is in this context of a power exchange. I’m the one in charge, you’re the one not in charge but in reality all of the boundaries and interests have been set up ahead of time so nothing would ever go on that wasn’t already approved from both ends. For me its really more about getting somebody to go some place that they need to go through, fetish and kinky outside of the box avenues.
Dave: What is really happening there is that you’re setting up something ahead of time with someone where they’re saying these are the things that I want to experience.
Natalie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dave: Then you are helping them experience this. Okay what do you get out of it other than, paid.
Natalie: Actually it’s really interesting. I fell into this one, I was very, very young and I always had an interest one in things that were medical and two, anything that was counter culture, punk rock music, leather chains. When I was young Motley Crue had a video and we saw the girls in these outfits and so that’s why I was originally attracted to it and sort of fell into it but then as I started developing my own interest I realized what I got out of it above everything else was knowing that the person left me feeling better than when they walked through the door. Having your job be where you can make somebody feel better is the best job that there possibly is so I get emails and letters and things that have literally brought me to tears with gratitude and thanking me and seeing how essential our play and what we do is in their life making them better parents, better colleagues, just better people themselves. I mean, what more could you ask for?
Dave: There are people I know who practice BDSM. Several of them have told me it’s therapeutic. They feel somehow just different when they’re done and that it’s not necessarily sexual. Do you have sex with your clients?
Natalie: Not at all. Actually I would say that there is only a fraction of my clients who actually orgasm during our time together and it’s never anything that I sort of facilitate. If anything it’s kind of the opposite of that. It takes sex or what we think of this traditional sex and it really brings it to a mental level. There’s a lot of physical things going on but it’s not sex in the traditional way especially the way men think of it which is a very physical act that can only really be exemplified by completion with an orgasm. For many of my subs and slaves that’s not even broached and for the ones that it is it’s an interplay often times like you had mentioned chastity have a large percentage of my subs who during our play time are actually in chastity the whole time because when that’s not the focus then all of these other things can be realized and all these other experiences can be brought to light and on many levels.
Dave: What does in chastity mean?
Natalie: There’s various devices that you can actually wear that sort of keep your genitals from getting an erection and that you can’t stimulate it at all. It’s just sort of being locked away.
Dave: You actually padlock the equipment there. All right.
Dave: You kind of take that off the table at the beginning.
Natalie: Just take … This has nothing to do with what we’re about to do. You’re locked up, I have the key, maybe you’ll get it back, we’ll see.
Natalie: Sometimes I’ll keep the key, give them a key in a lock box with a combination and then they have to wait X number of days for hopefully the email that comes with the code.
Dave: You send them home and they’re still padlocked, wow. I guess the TSA…
Natalie: Wives, they love it.
Dave: The wives love it?
Natalie: Well if they’re a couple and a couple is okay with this kind of play a lot of times there are assignments. They’ll have assignments to really give their partner a lot of attention and all of a sudden the focus just goes on pleasing somebody else.
Dave: You have wives who send their husbands to you?
Natalie: I have a few but it’s more like they’re couples and the wives are okay with the play but really just don’t have an interest in participating. Some will participate a little bit to the level of they know and will be incorporated that way and some are just like, “Do what you want to do that’s totally fine. I understand this is part of you but I don’t get it. It’s not in me and I don’t want to be that person.”
Dave: Okay. Do you have women who are clients as well?
Natalie: I do. A smaller percentage. I think for a couple of different reasons. One, in our society, I still don’t think it’s okay to pay for what’s considered sexual services whereas with men it’s totally acceptable. I think that plays a lot into it. Also I just don’t think a lot of dominate females gear their audience towards submissive females so I just don’t think from a general marketing perspective that a lot of women really know about it unless they search out.
Dave: You mentioned that you just felt attracted to this as a young person. How did you become a professional though? I’m sure there’s lots of people who experiment when they’re young, who are attracted to all sorts of things but then you took it one step further. When did you decide that you were going to charge for this?
Natalie: It was a total accident to be honest. This was back in 1993. There’s no internet, there’s nothing, I had no idea that this existed as a career. While I had interest in it, I still didn’t understand it to almost sort of real level. It was like imagery that was attractive to me. It was just a friend of mine who I hadn’t seen for a couple of years was working in this role play domination house and I bumped into her on a weekend home from college and she’s, “Hey come to work with me.” You’re 19, not even 19, 18. You’re like, “Sure, whatever.” I go to hang out with her. You don’t think, oh what do you do? Where are you working? Things started to develop as the day went on. I was like, “What is this place?” She explained it to me and I was fascinated. I just thought it was wonderful but I didn’t think it would be anything I’d do. One, I had lost a significant amount of weight but was still very overweight. I was probably about 170 or 180 pounds and just getting over being …
Dave: What are you now just for comparison?
Natalie: About 140.
Dave: Okay, so you’re much lighter now and you’re at a healthy weight?
Natalie: Yes and I was 240 so I was still … I was overweight since kindergarten. I saw these attractive women and these little outfits and I was like, “Oh that could never be me. I’m the fat girl that never had a boyfriend.” I just started hanging out there and watching and just being the eyes until one day my friend just had literally dragged me into the session room. I don’t remember the session, I just remember afterwards she was like, “Oh my God, how did you know how to say that and do that? I’ve been doing this for a year and I didn’t know how to do that.” I was just like, “I don’t know.” The woman who owned the place was like, “Work for me,” and I was in college. I was, “God, I could pay for school.” I started coming home every weekends and practicing and playing and paying for school and after about a year when I started to get a little confidence, I was like, “I really think this is something for me.”
Probably also because it changed my perspective about myself completely. Here I was ingrained in me that there was something really wrong with me. My whole life it was always the you’d be pretty if you lost weight or you’d be much more attractive if, if, if, and boys didn’t talk to me and all of a sudden these men who were 30 years my senior were just like, “Oh.” I was like, “What the hell is this?” It started to slowly help transform the perception of myself which I think was very cathartic and something could take people decades to do that I was able to really have done in this kinky, crazy, underground city environment. It’s always really positive to me. It was never anything negative.
Dave: It helped you, it brought you catharsis and what does it bring for your clients? How much does it cost?
Natalie: It really depends. I am definitely the upper end of the spectrum and I have my own private studio with no other employees in my town Manhattan.
Dave: It’s going to be very expensive up here in New York city.
Natalie: Yes my session range depending on how long I’ve known you and how long you’re playing between 250 and 400 hourly if I don’t drop.
Dave: Okay and this is without sex? That’s not what you do.
Natalie: Oh no, no. Absolutely no sex at all. It’s all just BDSM and fetish and role play to various degrees.
Dave: That’s about in New York what you spend on a good massage.
Natalie: A therapist.
Dave: It’s 250 bucks is a massage right?
Natalie: Yes and if you go to a shrink you’re easily paying a 400 an hour.
Dave: You’re some …
Natalie: Somewhere right in the middle.
Dave: You’re a life coach too. How much do you consider what you do psychological versus physical?
Natalie: At this point I would say it’s a good 85% psychological but I have 22 years of getting a group of subs that are probably more interested in the psychological benefits and the deeper connection that this can give. I don’t take on a lot of new people at this point in my career and if I do, they really have to be interested in sort of the over-arching sense of what BDSM can give and not just the physical aspect of it because I feel that’s leading. If you can tap into the mental aspects of it, that’ll just keep giving and giving and giving. I have some subs now that are in their mid to late 70s.
Natalie: When other things start to not work so well and the body can’t handle as much because I’ve been seeing them for 10 up to 16 years consistently. The brain is still very active and you can continue getting such joy out of things and that sense of total relief and stress relieving from their mental aspect. Me personally, my style is way more mental than physical.
Dave: Do you get turned on when you’re doing it?
Natalie: I get turned on between my ears but not between my thighs.
Natalie: That’s something people ask. I’m also constantly thinking the entire time. Even if I was doing say a very simple foot fetish session where somebody’s rubbing my feet, which yes, I can say, “Oh yes, that feels good.” That is a wonderful sensation but my brain is more concentrating on where is this going? Where are they at in this particular part of the scene? When is it time to do something else? It’s never something where I’m just going to be sitting back and enjoying sexual pleasure. Doesn’t really do it for me.
Dave: You’re spending your energy basically being in charge and figuring stuff out so the other person lets go but you’re not going to be letting go.
Natalie: Exactly it’s constantly reading body language, audible sounds, checking on things especially during heavier scenes where there’s very restrictive bondage or other intense activities going on. I’m looking at it not just from the mental perspective but then also the physical perspective of I’m the one completely in charge in the situation. They are trusting me 1000% to make sure that everything goes well. It’s a huge responsibility and so the brain is always going and thinking.
Dave: What’s the riskiest part of what you do?
Natalie: I guess there’s a couple of things that are risky. One is when you’re pushing heavy play just making sure the person’s going to physically be okay.
Dave: Heavy play, this is like spanking really hard or whipping or something?
Natalie: Well, spanking really hard and whipping unless you are doing something you shouldn’t like whipping over the kidney area or doing some wrap arounds, probably going to be okay. There’s not a lot of damage that can happen from that but I’ve heard some pretty nasty horror stories where people who were doing some nipple play and they had clamps on that were pretty, what they call alligator clamps and the woman didn’t understand and tugged on them and literally ripped off the nipple.
Dave: That would hurt.
Natalie: That sort of stuff but for me personally, I’ve love medical and I do a lot of heavy medical scenes with catheters and sounds and colonics and …
Dave: Wow, that’s pretty …
Natalie: Scrotal inflation and piercing and … Yes. I’m always looking, making sure things are sterile and clean and the person’s reacting okay to whatever it is that I’m doing just on a health standpoint. Also breath play. If you do restrictive breathing, hypoxic breathing, you really have to be in tune with person that you’re doing this with to make sure that they’re going to be okay. I’ve had people have panic attacks or get nauseous so you just really need to watch their physical aspect. The risky thing on other levels is, in New York, technically BDSM is iegal but there’s always this sort of grey area. If you look at the letter of the law, there’s no well, oh yes, this is legal.
You really have to watch and worry and wonder who’s coming through the door before you see them from that standpoint and also their mental soundness before you see them on even if it’s not from a legal standpoint just like, is this a safe person? I am alone with a stranger if you’re seeing them for the first time in the room doing all of these things that are supposed to push somebody’s boundaries, are they stable, are they going to flip out on you? There’s a couple of risky things there.
Dave: That could definitely be scary. I hadn’t quite thought about that. That leads to another question here. Stereotypically people would say … People who like this stuff clearly there’s something deviant about them that there’s something wrong with them, like they’re sick. There’s something abnormal. They said the same thing about gay people and about people of other minorities. There’s always this, that’s a group of other people but what we’re finding from this study I talked about at the beginning I was like, half of people are these fantasizing about this stuff so there’s probably something to it. What do you say to people who are like, “Okay, you need psychological help essentially”?
Natalie: Unfortunately society doesn’t approve of BDSM and fetish but if you were to look at some things that I believe have very masochistic tendencies. A lot of other people may question and never want to do in their life but never cast aside as them being off in some way. You look at people who want to sky dive or jump out of planes or the people who do marathons or ultra marathons or triathlons or these obstacle course races punishing their bodies again and again and again and doing some what I would consider extra ordinarily masochistic games but they are applauded for this. It’s masculine, it’s the thing to do, it’s like yes and who says that that is any more sick or disturbed or twisted than what they decide to do to sort of get the same effect, feeling of accomplishment and you made it through a challenge and you’re putting your body through these rigors and you’re getting out of your head space.
To me it’s just society says X, Y and Z is wrong and some doctors long time ago said, “Well this isn’t the way that it should be and we live in a very puritanical culture and our roots come from that. I think if you look at BDSM and fetish in other cultures, even in Germany, Europe in general, Canada it’s really not frowned upon like it is here in the US. You just look at the activities and look at some of the other activities we do that we give a thumbs up to and you might want to question.
Dave: A lot of the activities you just mentioned there are things that put people on a flow state and I’ve interviewed the flow state Genome guys. I’m their first investor in the flow genome project. Is BDSM something that puts people in the state of flow?
Natalie: Oh definitely, without a doubt. In the community generally people call it sub space but yes, it can if done properly. Really put the person who’s participating in it in a serious state of flow. The after effects can last days where there’s focus, there’s relaxation, there’s clarity, so I would see a huge parallel between the two.
Dave: People are coming to you. They’re pushing their boundaries and we know from the research on flow that pushing your boundaries puts you in the state of flow and what you’ve got going on is you’re pushing different boundaries than your ability to run even further in a marathon or something you’re pushing your boundaries. What is the boundary they’re pushing? It seems like …
Natalie: For everybody’s different. I think for some people running a half marathon would get them into that state if they weren’t trained and for other people they’d have to run 3 marathons. Everybody’s sort of trail path to get to that state is different. That’s why it’s really important to sort of communicate with them. For some people it’s physical, it’s like corporal punishment, one specific thing, spanking, flogging, whipping. Slowly gradually building up taking more and more intensity, more and more severe pieces of equipment over a period of time until they get there. Some people can get there really quickly and again some people takes them quite a bit of time, a lot more pushing. Same for bondage, restriction, for some people it’s simple. It’s a blind fold or a gag and for others it literally has to be head and neck immobilization, blind fold gags, straight jacket, body bag, toe bondage but it can be any of these activities to really push that person.
Dave: It sounds kind of like an addiction? Because you started out with just one and then you need two and then you need three. Is it like smoking? Or is this like utopia, an endorphin addiction?
Natalie: Well I don’t know if it’s so much of an addiction. For some people I think just like with marathon. It’s like one marathon will always be enough. That will always be more than enough but for other people they do want marathon and it’s like, no I want to try ultra marathoning. I have people I’ve being seeing for literally 15 years and they’re … What would get them into flow is still the same as it was about 15 years ago. Then there are the more, more, more people and that’s a lot more challenging because sometimes I need to ring it in and be like, no there isn’t more, more, more. This has to … You have to learn to sort of adjust your expectations to what we have right here because it’s not really healthy to keep expecting and always wanting bigger and better and more.
It’s not possible but then there are those self experimenters who do like to try a little bit of everything. That’s always fun so for a couple of years maybe it’s one thing and then they need to try something else, go down a different path and being really self aware helps them sort of see okay, this isn’t giving me what I really needed to give me anymore. I would like to try X, Y and Z.
Dave: Do you ever have clients who tried all of the things that they wanted to try and they’re like, “Oh I got that out of my system. I’m done. I don’t like BDSM anymore.”
Natalie: Usually it’s not, “I don’t like BDSM anymore.” It’s usually like instead of coming for a session or practicing BDSM every week or every month for a couple of years, it may be a once a year thing or twice a year thing. Whereas it’s no longer necessary to do it on a consistent basis.
Dave: Are they really just working through old traumas they have? Just kind of re experiencing them in a safe place?
Natalie: Some, yes. Of course. I really do believe that that is … Some in a very positive way. Something traumatic happens to you X, Y and Z. You’re taking it, you’re owning it yourself and then you’re sexualizing it and making it this positive thing. It is definitely a form of therapy if you’re working through something like that but for other people … One of my subs is always like, “I don’t know. I would just way rather get spanked than get a massage.” It just hits certain parts in the brain that are more satisfying and pleasurable than things that people with traditionally see as positively affecting their mental state and physical well being.
Dave: I’ve done this, as 40 Years of Zen. is in very advanced, intensive neurofeedback training program with clients. Some of whom have BDSM inclinations and people get very personal during these kind of things. It’s kind of therapeutic but we have a process that goes through and removes traumas. It’s very interesting because I’m hearing analogues to what you do. What we do is we put all the electrodes on your head, we show you how to go into a very deep alpha state which is one of the most reliable ways to put yourself in an alpha state is to have a sexual fantasy.
Natalie: Interesting. I did not know that.
Dave: Yes, if you’re stuck in the neurofeedback pod and we have this … this looks like Xavier’s School for the Gifted, the facility where we do this. You’re in this mansion and you’re in a fiber glass pod and you’ve got all these speakers and headphones and the things and they’re like, “I can’t make my brain do what I want it to do.” You’re like, think about whatever turns you own the most and for your set of clients it would be probably getting tied up or whatever, for someone else it may be, this is my wife or my husband. But then you can see the brainwaves are like, dun dun dun dun, lead her back in the zone.
It’s a way of getting unstuck. What we do in that program is we show you what your inhibitions and negative thoughts actually are because there’s a lie detector. You can’t hide from your internal dialogue with a lie detector telling you, no, no, no, but then in order to undo that, in order to release yourself from that, we actually have you go back and re experience the psychological pain, the physical sensation of the pain that caused your trauma and often times I always believed in fifth grade and I remember what it felt like when they pushed me down the stairs and it creates physical things in the body. The emotions are stuck somewhere.
What you do is you re experience whatever you felt at that time in life but then you re experience it as you are now then you raise your alpha brainwaves which has the effect of basically un-writing the rule your nervous system so you can let go. What I’m hearing you say here is that someone comes in, if they did have some trauma and it sounds like a lot of the stuff you’re doing is birth related. Like you’re squished and it’s sticky and you can’t move and you’re coming out. By the way I was born with a cord wrapped around my neck so I had lots of birth trauma. I have processed all that stuff so I don’t carry that with me the way I used to.
What I could see here happening is just someone goes in, you put them in a place via physical sensation that triggers whatever is stalking them and then now they’re experiencing from a place where they know they’re safe because they could always call a safe word or do whatever. To say, I need to stop here. Now we experience a sense of control whereas the first time the felt like they didn’t have control and then they feel better for a while afterwards. Is that … ?
Natalie: Yes, I know that’s very, very similar to what I do. I didn’t understand exactly what happened with the neurofeedback but it’s strikingly similar scarily so actually.
Dave: Yes, if you want to feel what a very high ultra brainwave say, it looks like have an orgasm. When they look at your brain, an orgasm that’s what happens. You don’t actually have to have an orgasm you see be turned on and your alpha brainwaves go up. You are absolutely putting people in an alpha brain state when you do that and probably a fate of brain state too if they’re hallucinating and sensor deprivation like the flow tank.
Natalie: Oh yes, definitely. They will remember things that didn’t actually happen when we review the session.
Natalie: Because their brain is literally seeing things that aren’t there or hearing things that aren’t there. It’s really interesting. To sort of review afterwards.
Dave: Okay. They’re re-seeing the danger instead which is a same thing that you get from proof floating in a century tank. The people experience stuff that didn’t happen because the brain’s like, what do I do? I didn’t have enough input. In your case because you’ve gotten blind folded or whatever. There are some really weird deep parallels to biohacking. By the way if somebody gets there in an alpha state or a theta state, an alpha state is usually a good state and a theta state is if it’s in a controlled theta state where you’re day dreaming and you’re experiencing good things when you want to do it, it’s also a very powerful thing. You’re helping people get into altered states that then lets them process stuff.
Natalie: On the other side there’s also the opposite of just being very present which I think people today are hardly ever truly present. When you walk through the door, the cellphones get shut off, there is no texting, there’s no emailing, there’s none of that. Just the break from all of that in an environment where you must focus 100% of your energy on what’s going on directly in front of you with zero distraction and I’m there to really make sure that that focus is kept for the entire time, an hour, two hours is very powerful. To really just know that you really can’t be distracted by anything else that’s going on in your brain or in life. Once you walk through that door it’s …
Dave: It’s a focus exercise for people then.
Dave: It reminds me of my buddy Maneesh Sethi. Maneesh runs Pavlok a company that has a wristband that’ll shock you if you misbehave. You can either have your friends on Facebook shock you. By the way you’d probably like this. I don’t know where you put this little sock and bracelet but I’m actually an investor in Pavlok
Natalie: Oh I have to look into this.
Dave: Yes, I’ll introduce you if you want but Maneesh got sort of famous. He’s very ADHD and he hired a woman on Craig’s list to come and slap him in the face every time he use Facebook so he can get work done. It helped him focus and that ended up becoming the genesis for his wristband and the idea there is when he does something that he doesn’t like, he literally shocks himself so his nervous system will behave. He’s had people quit smoking and done all these other things. The name even Pavlok is Pavlov and Lok. He wanted the bracelet to lock on so you couldn’t take it off and so other people could shock you if you didn’t go to the gym when you said you would. I think he’s more of the business model of it from there but it kind of has a few shades of what you’re talking about.
Natalie: Oh definitely. It really does. I have a lot of my subs who have, it’s sort of they’re under contract to get to the gym and eat certain way or have their weigh ins and there’s definitely repercussions if those guidelines aren’t followed.
Dave: What does under contract mean? As a way of losing weight who knows? Explain it.
Natalie: Again this is particular to people who thrive under that sort of hard rule. Some people they can do a boot camp style workout and having somebody yell on their face and be really aggressive and sort of debase them gets them motivated whereas other people will turn around and walk out the door. You need to know who you’re dealing with when you do something like this and who needs what sort of interaction which would be beneficial. For a few of my subs who are very serious about improving their life and health, especially since if I had known somebody 5 years, 7 years, 10 years, I tell them this is long term. This relationship isn’t going anywhere.
You need to be the best you that you can be in order to please me. They’re really working very hard to better themselves because it’ll make me happy. To facilitate this if they need to lose weight, they’re on high blood pressure medication they’re on. The traditional American diet and they sit behind a desk for work, God knows how many hours a day and don’t really get any activity. They sort of are, okay, you want to continue this relationship, you’re going to sign the contract. I come up with the parameters of weekly weigh ins and they’re going to stay between this 5 pound range and make sure they do XYZ to exercise and take a vacation and whatever it is. Literally I have weekly check ins to make sure that they are doing what they’re supposed to do.
Dave: What would happen if someone didn’t make a weigh in or ate something they weren’t supposed to eat? What do you do?
Natalie: It’s interesting. Again everybody is different. You would think that okay, you’re going to get punished but wait, you like to be punished. That doesn’t really work so often times their punishment is they don’t get to come in and see me.
Dave: Oh wow you banish them?
Natalie: It’s like, okay, you didn’t do what you were supposed to do. You don’t get to come in and see me and so you have another chance to prove to me that you’re going to fall through what you’re supposed to do. It’s sort of like the worst punishment. There are other lesser ones. Somebody’s like, “I really hate my nipples to be touched or played with,” so it’s sort of mild and fraction will be like, “All right, you didn’t do what you were supposed to do. I’m going to spend an hour just completely torturing your nipples because we both know that you really truly don’t like it.”
Dave: You find something they don’t like. If you compare what you do with a normal life coach which is, yes you should really try to hold yourself accountable. You’re like, if you dont’ do it, I’m basically going to make your nipples hurt for a week.
Natalie: Yes, I’m holding them accountable.
Dave: That’s sounds like kind of a scary coach but I can see how that would be motivating.
Natalie: Again, everybody is different and the ramifications are different for everybody but it is somebody that you have to check in with. By the point I’m making a contract with someone, we already have a very established relationship. More than anything the idea of disappointing somebody that they trust and look up to is probably they’re the biggest accountability. Because I’ll be like, “Well why? Why do you have beer and pizza? It’s like you know you’re not supposed to have gluten. What are you doing?” They’re like, “I knew I was at, I was this, I was that.” They know that they shouldn’t have done it. They don’t have to tell you, they could lie but they literally say, “I made a poor choice. I just want to let you know.” Then I sort of go through the whole your better choices, et cetera, et cetera, but yes, accountability.
Dave: I run the Bulletproof Coach Training Program which is a certification program all right. I actually can’t say I’ve run it, Dr Mark runs it but I helped to design it and I’m part of the training curriculum and it’s based on my work and we co-designed it. A big part of that for coaches is holding someone accountable. They are weekly check ins but they’re like, “Did you do it?” If not well I guess there isn’t any consequence of not doing it except you just have to tell your coach yes, I was busy this week so I didn’t do what I said I was going to do. Nutritionally, business wise or anything else, you just I guess carry a bigger stick than the average executive coach or life coach?
Natalie: I do. I’m able to definitely push their accountability a little bit further by giving them some really nasty punishments if they don’t follow through. Yes, so it’s a lot more fun.
Dave: I can imagine. What I’ve learned through doing neurofeedback in this 4 years is anything, 10 weeks of my life just like with a lie detector, there’s ego. There’s a process that runs inside of you that something is making the decision to eat the gluten or to not do what you said you were going to do. Either it’s you or it’s another process inside of you. I don’t know how many times when I was obese, I’m like, “I’m not going to eat the cookie.” Then by the end of the meeting where there’s a plate of cookies I eat the cookie. I’m like, “Damn it. I’m so weak,” but at the end of the day, my own understanding of my own consciousness now is that actually there’s just another consciousness inside my body that’s working in my body’s best interest not what I want. It’s the animal side of things. It sounds like, what you’re doing there, if you tell someone you’re in charge and you’re deciding, you’re taking that part of them.
Natalie: Away from them.
Dave: You’re taking it away so it’s not in the decision loop so it doesn’t intervene. Are you able to sieve people, quit smoking or people sub really hard habits using these techniques
Natalie: I haven’t had anybody who want to quite smoking as far as but one person but I didn’t know them very well. For me, I told them, “To be honest, I could try but I don’t think that this is going to work. We don’t have enough of a vested interest in each other for you to really listen to me,” basically. For other people yes. I got somebody to lose 100 pounds.
Dave: That’s pretty legit. How did you do that? I want to hear the other exhibit. How do you get somebody to lose 100 pounds by spanking them?
Natalie: There is a couple of people who’ve lost more than 50.
Natalie: Yes, I’m so proud of them, it’s absolutely amazing. Again, accountability is a large part of it. They don’t want to disappoint me. That’s another really huge aspect to this because we already have a relationship and they don’t want to come in and be disappointed. Then there’s always the fear of, if I’m disappointing and I’m not living up to what I said I’m going to do I’m not going to get to participate in this activity and have this relationship anymore. Make it very clear that if they’re not serious then I’m just not going to see them. I’m not going to invest my time and energy into this relationship unless you come to me with the same amount that I’m going to bring because I’m always going to bring 100% so I expect the same out of my subs. That really, really drives them because they know I never phone it in.
If I’m preparing and I’m planning and I’m putting things together and then being very particular to their needs or interests, they need to sort of give me the same in return. As far as the 100 pounds it was very interesting being 240 pounds at one point myself, 100 pounds more than I weigh now I completely understand what it’s like to be on that side of things. If someone comes to me and they’re heavy or overweight, I’m almost blind to it. People bring up the need to lose weight or this or that but I don’t see people in that way just because I think I had different perceptions visually as myself and other people so that doesn’t come into play. I’ll never force it but if they come to me and say, “Hey I really want to lose weight. I know you have lost a lot of weight. Can we sort of work on this. We come up with a plan that I think could work for them given all of their little triggers that I know about the particular person.
The person who lost the 100 pounds, we had traveled for a session and they were having a really hard time getting around. They couldn’t even come close to keeping up and they saw I kept having to slow everything I did down and their lack of energy and abilities really hindered the trip that we were on and that prompted them to start to lose weight and ask me all sorts of health advice right away. It wasn’t like a contract situation or a weekly weigh in situation. It was that they saw how their weight really impacted being around and physical. Then after maybe the first 40 pounds planning another trip that person really wanted to go and do a physical activity that they hadn’t done in many many many many many years.
I was really, couldn’t believe in their physical condition they could do. I said, “If you think you can physically handle it, I’ll go on that trip with you.” When I saw them 2 months later they had dropped I don’t know, like 20 pounds. Then I was like, “Perfect.” I was like, “Let’s start planning the trip.” In planning for this trip every time I’d see them 20 pounds, 20 pounds, 20 pounds and then they said to me which is what I suspected is that I didn’t want to go to a beach area and walk around with you looking the way that I used to look because I would have embarrassed you.
Natalie: Talk about powerful.
Dave: That is powerful.
Natalie: That really almost brings tears to my eyes to just think, just the relationship that we had would make them do something like lose 100 pounds after trying and struggling for so long. Did I know that that little trick was going to cause this effect? Absolutely not but when once I saw what it was doing, I totally picked up on that and then started having all the things that I could do putting in place to make sure that they would continue down that path.
Dave: What other big behavior changes have you seen in clients?
Natalie: Definitely getting more physically active. I deal with a lot of people who have very high stress jobs, lawyers, finance and they are just standing at a desk, sitting unfortunately at a desk for so long so getting people to be physically active. Literally forcing them to go to yoga with me, go rock climbing with me, I literally make it part of our session. They’re probably wearing panties or other things on underneath which makes it a little interesting. Rock climbing and chastity that’s fun but yes, definitely take that and start to physically bring them with me. Then again with the whole I don’t want to disappoint you, they start to do it on their own. That way the next time we do it they’re better at what they do. It starts to incorporate them, starts getting incorporated into their routine. I’ve turned many many people onto yoga because I think that especially for men in high stress jobs, just sitting, breathing and stretching a little bit is one of the best things.
People who are more into being physically fit, going for hikes or rock climbing things of that nature. That’s been huge. Then diet change. Really getting rid of the standard American diet and giving them a lot of information and resources about Bulletproof Diet and Paleo and Keto seem sort of what can fit into their life and imparting all of the things I’ve learned to experimenting with myself on that. Since I’ve known them for so long, they’ve seen the changes in me. They have seen when I was vegetarian, vegan, endurance, compulsive exercising to sort of the lifestyle that I have now and they’re like, “You look 5 years younger now than you did. What are you doing?” I was like, “Oh if you want to know … ”
Dave: You’re in ketosis now right? You use Bulletproof coffee I think? You’re very faithful.
Natalie: Yes I sure do, every morning for the past probably almost 3 years now.
Dave: Oh wow, okay. You’re a ketogenic dominatrix which is cool.
Natalie: I am. I go in and out.
Dave: Thank you. I’m a huge fan of going in and out as well especially for women it’s maybe profitable.
Natalie: Yes. I do do usually about two, two and a half months of strict keto right before a photo shoot because. But then after that the last time I went for a long stretch more than three months, I did have issues. I go to the doctor every 3 months for my blood work and thyroid dropped and my hormones got all off balance, my hair started falling out again and my amenorrhoea came back so I was like, okay, for me personally being in strict ketosis everyday for more than 2 months, it’s not good for me but going in and out for sure especially for the cognitive benefits. My grandmother passed away with Alzheimer’s and I have the gene so I’m like, this is something I should do.
Dave: Yes and the question of do you want to do it every week, every month, as long as you’re in it some of the time or in my case when working with women especially just having some ketones present seems to be really important. Even if you’re not full blown in ketosis, if you’re using brain octane you can get enough ketones that you’ve got the brain benefits even if you do you some carbs which maybe helped with your monthly hormone fluctuations. It’s very individualized.
Natalie: Yes, i’m usually anywhere between 0.5 and 1.4.
Natalie: If I could get 0.8 I’m really happy. I’m like, all right that’s good, that’s all I need. Just right there.
Dave: What we were talking about for listeners is just a number you get when you stick your finger with a ketone monitor. I’m happy with a 0.5, anything above 0.5 is cool but 0.5 is where the hunger changes happen and where cognitive benefits kick in and anything above that, I’m not dealing with cancer or Alzheimer’s or neuro degeneration at least not anymore. I probably was dealing with neuro degeneration when I was in my 20s but I think the ketone number for each person varies dramatically based on who they are. Let’s see, there’s a couple more questions I have for you. I’m just looking through all the stuff that we’ve talked about so far. One of them is, you mentioned slut training. What is slut training?
Natalie: Yes. Slut training is actually one of my favorite things to do. It plays into a lot of role reversal. Basically it’s taking this guy who’s probably pretty guys guy kind of guy, either Wall Street or lawyer or a construction worker and taking the role and reversing it. One we never call men sluts. That’s a term that’s only used for women and pretty derogatory one. It’s fun to sort of take whatever sexual arousal that they’re feeling and sort of call him a slut just because it’s something that’s counter culture or something you’re supposed to do. Then emasculate them with a pair of panties, stockings and make them do sort of feminine things.
A lot of my clients are very into the whole imagery of a female with a strap on it. It’s a fetish, so putting them in a position where I’m literally wearing the genitals of the guy and they are forced into this position of being more like a woman, a maid, crawl around, nails painted, lipstick, it could go pretty far to full transformation. Even if it’s just embracing sort of their sexuality in a non masculine way, I think men approach sex in a certain way and they always have to be the one in charge and it’s all about the orgasm but when you sort of flip it on them and make them moan and touch their own body and sort of get in touch with that more feminine side of themselves, it’s an interesting mind flip. Just to see what it does to them and the sort of creativity that they come up with and the letting go of preconceived notions and boundaries and just sort of diving into this place.
If you were outside looking and you would think it was ridiculous. Here’s a six foot four guy who’s burly with a beard and a bra and panties rolling around on the floor or touching himself and moaning like a girl. The imagery is literally …
Dave: It does sound a little ridiculous.
Natalie: Honestly if the outsider looking in would be like, “This is just stupid,” but when you’re in the moment and you’re sort of being told to do these things that are really challenging to do. Challenging your masculinity, challenging who you are as a person, doing all these feminine things that you’re not supposed to do. You’re breaking all of these boundaries and notions of who you are as a person and sort of putting yourself in that situation is very challenging but I also think pretty cathartic for a lot of guys. Getting them to just be in tune with their emotions and their intuition.
I had one person say after a couple of years we did lots of slut training, he’s like, “This whole thing, I have to thank you for the huge boost in the career that I have had because I’ve literally been able to change the way that I think when I approach things now and it’s no longer from the sort of narrow focused masculine, this is the way the job is supposed to be done kind of way and I really started thinking outside of the box and going in areas other people were scared to go.” He was like, “My business has just shot through the roof,” and he was like, “I have you to thank for it,” my sissy training.
Dave: Is sissy training the same as slat training?
Natalie: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave: It’s the same thing?
Natalie: Yes it’s interchangeable. These are words that if you look them up in Urban Dictionary or whatever will have a lot of definitions but it’s basically role reversal with elements of feminization usually clothing thrown into play.
Dave: Got it. Okay. This is basically making people or men in positions of masculine energy or positions of power visually face more of a feminine side of things?
Natalie: Yes and the terminology also at least in the state of New York, any sort of play with a strap on is not legal.
Dave: Is it wearing it’s not legal or using it’s not legal?
Natalie: No wearing it’s fine but any insertion where there is an exchange of money. If you look at the law I believe the technical law for prostitution is if there is sexual gratification that is paid for it’s prostitution. It’s very loose. If you get off on getting a root canal and you pay for it, technically that can be considered prostitution. You have to be sort of very creative with how you come up with things because you never want to get in trouble for doing something that you’re not supposed to do. On a legal standpoint, the whole sissy slut training generally also implies there could be strap on worship or penetration with it to some degree.
Dave: Okay, got it. You definitely take it all the way then.?
Natalie: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dave: Do you find that there’s a kind of guy who’s a stereotypical client? You always here stuff about people who are in the position of power all the time, that they’re the ones who are most likely to be going to a dominatrix. Is that actually true or is it just like a mismatch?
Natalie: 80% of the time it is really true at least for me. Also the type of client and sub that I see, they’re not lifestyle submissive. They don’t live 247 as a submissive. I like it much better when they’re in a relationship or have a career and this is just part of their personality because I can’t dedicate as much time as would be needed as if they wanted to do this all the time. The person coming to me generally is stereo type A personality, always in charge, always in control, head of household, has a position of power at job, a lot of responsibility. That responsibility could vary, they’re not always making tonnes of money, it could just be high stress, lots of people beneath them that they’re managing, whatever it is.
I could say a good 80%, 85% are your total type A, total in control, always in charge person. They want to not be in control in a very controlled way because obviously all the parameters are set up before hand. It’s this huge relief and they’re like, “Oh wow, I get to listen to somebody else for a change and I actually trust this person. It’s okay to let go of being in control because I have confidence in this person and listening to them. A lot of people who are that type A, they don’t let go of that control because they don’t feel that there’s anybody around them who would do the job as good as they would do or have the abilities that they do. If I can come across in a way that they understand that I can handle being in charge of them, it’s really excited to be like, oh my God. I get to just totally let go.
Dave: You send these guys back to work in padlocks and panties and things like that?
Natalie: I often time think when I’m sitting on a crowded subway train, how many people have a garter belt on, how many people are in chastity, who’s wearing nipple clamps, who has a remote controlled vibrating butt plug inside o them?
Dave: Do you think that there are people on every subway car doing that?
Natalie: I don’t know if it’s every subway car but maybe the whole train. I definitely …
Dave: There’s definitely people like that so just start looking around for panty lines on your favorite executive and … Actually don’t do that. You probably don’t want to know.
Natalie: Was so fun. I went to a great restaurant here in New York city Le Bernardin, one of my favorite restaurants and think that was kind of cool out but literally under his suite he had a full latex jumper. He was wearing latex from here to his mid thigh.
Dave: Oh wow.
Natalie: Completely covered in latex, a chastity device he had an electric remote control electric plug. It was inserted anally and it was like a astem. I have the remote on my side of the table and the little box is in his suit pocket that’s going to the jacket.
Dave: Oh my God.
Natalie: He’s just about to take a sip of wine and zap.
Dave: Were you just sitting there in a restaurant in public and no one has any idea? My God.
Natalie: No clue, and the best is when it could be sort of visible bondage but no one has a clue. I have one of the neck braces that you wear for trauma when they put you on a board so you take someone out and you put them in something like that and they’re sitting there and they can’t move. You’re like, “Good luck eating.” People just think they’re hurt.
Dave: Oh my God. I see you’re totally just taking them out there. I never would have imagined that.
Natalie: Oh yes, my domination is definitely … I like to bring it beyond the room if possible especially when you know somebody. Some of my sessions are of a course of a couple of days and we do do outings to various places like I said, rock climbing in panties, out to dinner with all sorts of things going on, nipple clamps, bras under your cloths.
Dave: Don’t people see a bra under cloths? When people are in the restaurant if they saw that, feel uncomfortable about it?
Natalie: The wonderful thing about living in New York is unless you are on fire, I don’t think anybody’s going to notice anything.
Dave: Fair play.
Natalie: Also I’m personally taking it on as a project of mine to bring a little bit of grit and fun back to the city because I think the city’s become way too sanitized. Whenever I get the chance to do something in public that maybe turns few heads like walking down the street handcuffed to somebody, I think it’s a good thing from Manhattan.
Dave: You’re fine to push the buttons. Apparently that’s like your day job is pushing people’s buttons so you’re happy to do it.
Natalie: I’m fine with totally discreet, that’s perfect and I can do that very, very well especially if bra, panties, stockings, under a suit, no one’s going to notice that. There’s absolutely no way. If you have a jacket on and as long as it’s not … You’re not wearing a tight, tight shirt you’re wearing a fitted shirt, no one’s going to notice but the person wearing it will feel like everybody’s going to notice.
Dave: Got it. It’s really a mind game.
Dave: Okay. Who would have thought? I’m never going to ride the subway again thinking the same thing. You’re also an entrepreneur. You run your business for 20 years and you’re doing it in a very unusual niche market but you’re one woman operation and you’re sort of put on this pedestal is like an unattainable kind of thing. What’s it like behind the scenes actually running your business?
Natalie: Oh it’s crazy. I loved working for commercial houses and the woman who I was with for many years, I think it’s 11 years ago now. I officially started 11 years ago and I also had a custom baking business at the time that I was sort of launching and building my dungeon and studio. It is challenging. There is very little delegation can be done in my job. It’s sort of like, almost everything does have to be done by me which becomes a lot of work and just like any other business, it’s like, I have to make sure supplies are bought and place is clean and bills are paid and …
Dave: Don’t you have subs to do all that for you for free?
Natalie: Well one … The thing about subs … I do have one who will help clean when they’re available. Most of my subs they don’t have time like me.
Dave: They’re all CEOs or Wall Street people.
Natalie: They have to survive in New York.
Dave: Okay got it.
Natalie: They don’t have time. It’s one of those things and the few that do definitely do give an effort but there’s also that thing, I hate to say it but unless you do it yourself, it’s never going to get done 100%. There’s that aspect of it.
Dave: You have control issues as well? Sorry.
Natalie: I do delegate a little bit. It is very challenging especially the email and content, it’s like I can’t put that off to somebody else. This is personal.
Dave: I feel the same way about the Bulletproof content. It’s hard when I work with people. I hear you.
Natalie: I do have one slave who when I need my packages he will definitely make himself available especially lifts big, heavy things, he will come and clean my studio, he just fixed the light switch that needed to fixed for ever. He was in there this morning, I gave him the keys he was able to fix that so that’s a big help but my people don’t see the real business side of it. It’s more challenging doing what I do, getting a lease, doing my taxes, it’s like there’s no line for dominatrix. Then you have to be really creative with sort of what you do to make all of that work as well and things go wrong and you just have to sort of navigate it and fix it and make sure that everything is in order and the lights turned on and the equipment is clean and you have the suppliers that you need, then you can go in and have fun and then go back out and do your social media and Facebook and emails and bill paying and everything else.
Dave: How many hours a week do you work?
Natalie: I think a better question is, how many I don’t and it’s probably the seven hours that I sleep.
Dave: So you work a lot then?
Natalie: I do. It’s too much. This is not … I’m not promoting this for anybody who’s trying for better health, don’t think I don’t know that this is not optimal but there’s a lot of things for me. One, maintaining my own private studio plus my own apartment in Manhattan. My overhead is ridiculous. That is a big portion of this as well as I have to be realistic about the future of what I’m doing. I’ve had my studio for 11 years and the rent is extraordinarily high right now. My lease is coming up soon.
I realistically don’t know how many years I have left doing this in this format so I’m really trying to make the most of it in the next couple of years. If I need to sort of change what I do to a certain degree, I will have enough to cover me if I need to take a step back and sort of regroup. That’s driving me a lot right now to sort of get to that place where I feel a little bit more comfortable but I love what I do too. There is this … I feel I put a lot of pressure on myself to make sure everything is perfect which we know it can never be and I put a lot of time and thought probably way more than is necessary to what I do because it means a lot to me to make sure when I step into that room, I really am giving 100% and making sure that person is going to have the best session every time even if it’s our 500th session.
Dave: What percentage of your time do you spend in sessions versus the other part of running your company?
Natalie: The session time is very little. Maybe 2 to 3 hours with a client in the room, a day, five days a week. The rest is … basically for every hour that I’m in the room, it’s usually about 3 hours of work. Putting the plan together, getting the equipment ready, prepping before hand, cleaning up afterwards. In general, one to three sort of ratio.
Dave: You’re working really hard, you make $400 an hour but you’ve got two things in New York and I can see why where you’re working a lot of hours that you’re in a pretty expensive market.
Natalie: Yes and I’m in Midtown so it’s definitely very, very expensive. There’s the whole thing. There’s no sick days, there’s no paid vacation, there’s none of that sort of stuff. That always plays into it. Taking time off is a little challenging.
Dave: Talk to me about financial domination. You mentioned that earlier which I came across that as I was researching for this show. I don’t think we talked about that earlier. What is financial domination and couldn’t that be a solution to all of your problems?
Natalie: Financial domination, it is basically where somebody fetishizes giving you money. I have not mastered the skill. There are women out there who that is their thing. They really are into financial domination. I could say it’s something that I didn’t quite understand when I first started getting into it because I always felt like I was cheating them.
Natalie: Just as a person and that was probably my own misconception because they want to be in that position but I obviously had a hang up about money and taking something. I’m feeling like I wasn’t doing something for that something so it was neither a specific area that I sort of grew my skills in unfortunately at this point, I’m like, that would have been a better path and avenue for me to take but I have with a few people who I see more over Skype or the phone that I do do some financial domination with.
Dave: It’s basically like … I’m having a hard time imagining that. This is someone who actually just derives pleasure from being like, “Take my money”?
Natalie: Pretty much. There’s the, you’re going to pay me and you’re not worthy so go sit in the corner or turn around and leave or I’m going to do 30 other things while you sit there and watch me and pay me for it. I know some other girls, they do a lot and it’s like, okay, I’m going out to dinner with my friends and you’re going to pay for the entire dinner for the 6 people and you’re just going to listen to us on the phone. Then they’ll make little comments and some humiliating comments while they’re having dinner and yes …
Dave: You’re pushing buttons about self worth or something basically?
Natalie: Yes. Definitely.
Dave: Okay. That is interesting but I guess if you have someone who’s consenting as an adult and that pushes buttons for them, I don’t have any problems with it but it seems like that’d be convenient to have in New York.
Natalie: It definitely would be but I guess from my perspective, it’s always really important for me to make sure my sub leaves feeling way better when he walked through the door. Until I have an established relationship with you, I don’t know if I could tell right away unless you had experience in financial domination if that was sort of your thing. I would always be hesitant to sort of suggest that right off the bat.
Dave: It seems ethically risky for some reason.
Natalie: Yes, from my perspective it could be and I think like I said, a lot of people they have their skills honed to know how to navigate that situation but it was something I never really sort of fell into. I heard some horror stories I think probably the first five or six years I was doing it were sort of giving their credit card or bank account access and it went sort of horribly wrong and the person changed their mind. It was legal troubles and I was like, “I think I’m going to step away from that one.”
Dave: That just feels sketchy to me but I wouldn’t judge someone who really, genuinely derive pleasure from that.
Natalie: Yes and there are. I know it and I’ve seen it. I just feel I don’t have … That’s not one of my top skill sets. A few people once I know them, I’ll be like, “Okay.”
Dave: Got it.
Natalie: But if there’s anybody out there who wants to be financially dominated, feel free to contact me.
Dave: All right Mistress Natalie.
Natalie: I’ll take you on.
Dave: Now, we’re coming up on the end of the show. I guess we went longer than a normal show because well frankly that’s pretty fascinating to see it, just to ask a bunch of these questions that I’m sure a lot of listeners if they’ve ever thought of it and like what? I want to ask the question that I’ve asked all the guests on the show which is that, someone comes here tomorrow and says, “I want to kick ass at everything. I’ll perform better at life, what are the 3 most important things that I should know? What would you tell them given your very unusual journey through life?
Natalie: Let’s see. I would say the first thing would be, be self aware and if you’re not, definitely look into finding out who you are as a person and what it is that you like and what really makes you tick or who do you really want to be because I think too many times in life we are stuck doing a whole bunch of stuff that we don’t really want to do because everyone tells us we should and it’ll make us happy and most people wind up being miserable. Really finding a lot of self awareness is going to be the first thing that’s super important. Then have some sort of practice of being grateful for things even things that you might think you shouldn’t be grateful for. Finding some way to really look at your life and be like, wow. I’m grateful for X, Y and Z. Do that on a pretty consistent basis because I think that gets lost in looking for me, trying to better or getting down on yourself. That would be number two.
Number three would probably be to make sure to confront your fears. Challenge yourself in some way. I like to personally do one thing that’s going to scare the crap out of me every year, like one big, this is really scary to me and I’m going to do it and it doesn’t have to be a big thing. Even if they’re small fears. You’d be surprised how amazing it feels to actually confront the fear and then you realize the fear of the fear was way worse than the fear itself, then it could hold you back for a lot in life. Those would probably be the 3 things that I would suggest for anybody who wants to really kick ass in this world.
Dave: That’s a fantastic list. The thing about confronting something that makes you afraid every year is not an answer I’ve heard that often but it’s so important and it’s something that I’d certainly practice. If I find anything that makes me uncomfortable and I must have some sort of a trigger around that, I guess I’ll try it and see what the trigger is so I can deep program the triggers. I don’t want to have unconscious reactions to things so pushing your own buttons, there’s value to that.
Natalie: I’ve a huge fear of falling completely off the charts and this year’s big challenge is a thousand foot climb in the Flat Hours for rock climbing.
Natalie: I will be wearing my diaper and having lots of tissues for when I cry and poop myself, it’s all good. I’m ready for it.
Dave: That actually takes a lot of courage to do something that really, really makes you afraid. So that’s cool. Now Mistress Natalie, where can people find out more about you?
Natalie: My website is mistressnatalie.com. That would probably be the best place. There are some videos up. Another interview that I did and some videos of my studio and a plethora information, photos going back to the early years and the early 2000s and sort of my statement about what I do and philosophies. Then I have my blog which is definitely more graphic. If you’re squeamish that might not be the place to start.
Dave: You just tripled your traffic levels when you said that. Please, oh no, not a graphic blog, that’d be terrible. Then if people wanted to work with you just for life coaching without you tying them up, do you do that?
Natalie: Yes. I do. It’s definitely something that I don’t do as much of just because I don’t have the time.
Dave: Okay, got it.
Natalie: Obviously just from the financial aspect of it, it doesn’t make as much sense for me to spend more time doing that. Also I really love the BDSM aspect in combining the two. If somebody wanted to separate the 2, totally up for it. Love to do it especially if it’s on a health nutrition self exploration sort of front. If you want life coaching and you are in the business world and you want that, it’s not really my expertise but entrepreneurs, that sort of stuff.
Dave: All right. Well thank you for being on Bulletproof Radio. I’m sure given that summer training a quarter and a half million people will hear this interview that you might find at least one or two of them who are probably going to come and meet you in New York. Maybe we can keep your studio thriving for a while longer.
Natalie: That would be great.
Dave: If you’ve sat and listened to our relatively long interview today I hope it was valuable to you in your car or if you’re watching on YouTube. That’s bulletproofexec.com/youtube to find the YouTube channel. You can subscribe to that. There’ll be a transcript of all this in case you need to go back and look up what slat training actually is or any of the other unusual things that we talked about that are pretty different from what you probably read in 50 shades of grey if you could actually make through that book. On that note, Mistress Natalie, anything else you’d like to say to the audience before we sign off?
Natalie: Just keep listening to this absolutely amazing podcast and I hope that there are a lot of people out there who got something beneficial out of it.
Dave: Thanks for being on Bulletproof Radio.
Natalie: Thank you.
Dave: If you enjoyed today’s show, you know what to do. Head on over to iTunes and leave a review. One of the most important things you could do to help other people find the show is to just go in there and give it a five star rating if you feel it’s worthy of five stars. We’re usually number one ranks on iTunes. If you don’t know where to go for that, you just go to Google and Bulletproof Radio iTunes. We’ll come right up. It takes about five seconds to leave a review. We just spent about an hour and a half plus many hours of prep time creating the show for you. If you can spend 5 seconds to say thanks, I’d really appreciate it. Just leave a review and tell me what you think. I actually read the reviews all thousand plus of the five star reviews. I’d love to make it 2000. Have an awesome day.
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What You Will Hear (note: timestamps represent audio, video may differ)
- 0:00 – Teeter
- 1:45 – Cool Fact of the Day
- 3:06 – General Assembly
- 5:21 – Introducing Mistress Natalie
- 9:53 – Defining BDSM
- 15:23 – Chastity & BDSM
- 17:43 – Becoming a dominatrix
- 22:03 – BDSM: Psychological or physical?
- 24:48 – Risks
- 27:37 – Responding to critics
- 30:10 – Flow-states
- 35:15 – Similarities with neurofeedback
- 42:08 – Being “under contract”
- 48:19 – Losing weight & other behavior changes with BDSM
- 57:05 – Slut training
- 1:02:30– Typical clients
- 1:08:20– Running the business
- 1:14:11– Financial domination
- 1:18:12– Top 3 recommendations to kick more ass and be Bulletproof!
General Assembly codeword – bullet
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